Interview with Sabina Potočki, Koen Van Daele and Bettina Knaup
In the second interview, through which we are exploring various approaches to feminist curation on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the City of Women association, we spoke with Koen Van Daele, a program selector who collaborated with City of Women from its beginning until 2003; with Sabina Potočki, co-organizer and co-selector of the festival program from 1997 to 2008; and with Bettina Knaup, who joined the festival team in 2001 and co-curated the City of Women program for four years. The City of Women team discussed mutual collaboration, curation, and the cultural and political climate of that time with Koen, Sabina, and Bettina.
COW: Koen Van Daele, how did you start collaborating with Uršula Cetinski and the City of Women? How was the handover of the curatorial and coordination function carried out?
Koen Van Daele: It's really a long time since this happened, so I will give you the information I remember - if there are particularities that you would be interested in and you would like us to check, I will definitely go for it. So in terms of starting to work for City of Women things were very spontaneous and organic I would say. I was new in Ljubljana and Ljubljana was very open to the arts and culture. There was a lot of interdisciplinary arts, people who were into movies were also into music, into contemporary dance and literature etc., so Ljubljana had a very vibrant, lively cultural scene. Coming from Belgium, I was looking for projects and jobs and Sabina told me that she had heard that Uršula Cetinski, who used to work for the theatre, was now on her own and was working on developing a project for women’s arts. I went to meet Uršula to see if she would be interested in me joining the team and she said yes and that's how it all started.
Uršula was very much into inviting people active in all the artistic fields and in the 1st edition the goal was really to create five-day event that would take over the city. The City of Women was focused on the position of women in the society and in the city, this was the main idea and concept. The point was really to be everywhere, not just in alternative spaces but also in the main cultural centres, in all the disciplines and everywhere. If I remember correctly, this meant something like 50 events over a period of five days, which was gigantic for Ljubljana, I mean, really like a bomb you throw into the city. And the whole approach was based on selecting only women for this art festival; let it be an interdisciplinary art or independent, whether you would call it feminist or non-feminist - it was really based on selecting only women. By doing that we would indirectly point at mechanisms that are in place. We would point out how disproportionately women are presented in the art scene. Imagine you were to do a festival like The Ljubljana International Film Festival and you get the task that you use exactly the same criteria in terms of quality, relevance of the artists and of the work, but you select only women. What would happen? And this was the challenge and approach for the festival.
COW: How was it for you to coordinate the fifth festival, the anniversary? After the practice you had...
Koen Van Daele: Every year was different, I mean, every year we were responding to, on the one hand, what is going on in the city. Because we had some very, very loud and very aggressive counter voices within the 1st edition. People were not welcoming us with open arms. Although this was not a general thing, there were some very loud voices in the media that were saying that our festival is terrible. So each time we were working on this. But on the other hand, we kept in our mind the basic mission and just proceeded. Our main goal was to look for great art, great works, great artists and when we put them together, we then thought of a slogan that connects them.
We didn’t decide on the topics in advance and say OK, next year we will work on this topic. It was rather the opposite, we would say. We looked for great work in all disciplines and then we tried to find some links between different works and tried to make networks and connections. What played an important role in these years of curiosity was that people were interdisciplinary. So if you were a specialist or very much into the fine arts, you would also go to something that has to do with film or somebody from the film-making field would definitely also go to see exhibitions or go to concerts etc.
The connection between the festival as an idea and the reality we were living, I think, was very important. The fact that both here on Metelkova and at Kersnikova 4, you basically had all important associations like Cf* that was in the corridor, you had Druga Godba on the corridor, also Vertigo was there, you had LGBT community there, Plesni teater in Ljubljana, so we met each other on the corridor. In this sense it was- I mean the way I always felt it also throughout these five years and then the three years after when I was more engaged with Kinoteka, because I started the job there, but yes, the first five years we didn't have a rigid structure where we would try to fit the work in. We always started from the work and the artists and then tried to find a bridge with the audience. Or try to find the audience or try to get the ball rolling and people to think certain things which artists brought to the table. We were there as a platform for the artists, not a platform for ourselves.
“The connection between the festival as an idea and the reality we were living, I think, was very important.”
COW: I would go back to you, Sabina, and Bettina, to ask you, how did you join and how did the dynamic change?
Sabina Potočki: I am relating now with the first question maybe just to explain, that I was the only Slovenian in the group. I mean Koen was living here but was rather fresh at the beginning of the City of Women, also fresh to Slovenia and to the local scene and with Bettina it was the same, she was coming and going so I was like the ground for our group. I knew the people, venue locations, communications, so most of my work that I remember, in addition to curating, involved organizing and coordinating the festival and keeping it alive during the time when Bettina was not in Ljubljana yet and we were working across the distance, because we didn’t have money for her to move in.
I would start with the short introduction of my background, because I came to Ljubljana in 1984, deciding to study sociology after I had already finished University of business and economy in Maribor. I came to Ljubljana with the intention of starting to dance, which my parents didn’t know about, but I decided to be independent. I found my funds, started to study sociology, and work with professional group of dancers. That was extremely new at that time in Yugoslavia. I was invited by a choreographer Ksenija Hribar (she’s not alive any more), to be part of the first professional contemporary dance group in Yugoslavia and Slovenia called Ljuskbljana Dance Theatre. So I immediately came to Ljubljana and started to dance. But at that time, in the 90s, if you were an independent association, nobody had producers or organizers, who would know how to work within the independent scene, for example, to make a contract or to pay the fee, how to apply for funds at the ministry, and all this stuff. For me it was extremely funny, how something I was escaping from, the economy in Maribor, became something very important for Ljubljana Dance Theatre and me. In addition to dancing, I have organised and coordinated the work in various ways. So, my beginnings with the CoW festival were already in 95 as collaboration with Ljubljana Dance Theatre. We were working on the workshop of Carlotta Ikeda, Japanese choreographer, so I was informed about the festival, and I also knew Vita Potočnik, who was one of the establishers of the festival. The Womens Office decided that it would be good to expand their knowledge to arts and cultures, because they thought that it is underrepresented, which was extremely strange for official governmental office. As external collaborator I joined in 1995, then in 1996 I was as part of Ljubljana Dance Theatre helping Sinja Ožbolt, choreographer from Ljubljana Dance Theatre, to present her performance on the 2nd edition. Since we were a couple with Koen at that time and were both looking for new jobs, this was my beginning, related to coming from Ljubljana Dance Theatre in 1997 to City of Women. But I was still dancing till 2004, then I stopped and mainly went full time into organizational and curatorial work.
COW: And you Bettina?
Bettina Knaup: I joined in 2001 after writing a formal application because at the time I was looking for a job. My background is also interdisciplinary, I come from theatre studies on the one hand and political science and gender studies on the other. In the late 90's I have been working for The Internation Women’s University, which was an academic, large-scale pilot project offering a three-month transdisciplinary study programme in different German cities for roughly 1000 artists and scholars from all over the world, with the idea of really founding a proper university.
I was involved in its overall development, but mostly I co-curated a public art program, which was very interdisciplinary, trying to bring together the subjects that were discussed and elaborated in the different project areas of this initiative and inviting artists engaging with the same subjects. And in this three-month interdisciplinary feminist art program realised in summer 2000, I've met several artists who had been at the City of Women festival previously and spoke very positively about it. Among them was for instance one choreographer who we had invited to Hanover at the time - Mateja Bučar. And then after this program was over, I was really looking for a job and I simply wrote an application letter. I think Koen replied in a very, very friendly way, saying, yeah, great, let's meet, but we don't have any money. And I think then we met early in 2001.
There's also a funny side story. When Koen wrote to me, I didn't understand the name properly and somehow assumed that Koen would be a woman. So I remember this moment when we met and I was like, OK wow, it’s really a man doing this festival, which somehow from the whole communication and everything was a surprise... well I didn't expect it. However, it was really a great meeting and then I applied for money from the Goethe Institute, well, we applied together. At that time, there was a specific fund, stabilizing countries that would be in the process of joining the European Union at some point . So somehow, we got the money to fund me and my accommodation and fee. So that's how it started, basically.
And I must say, basically this whole time I've spent with Koen and Sabina and with the City of Women was for me like a second professional training. I think it was so formative in many ways. I learned so much from both of you. And I think it very much formed me in terms of what it now means for me to be a curator, a feminist curator. So yeah, it was a very formative period somehow.
I would like also to add one thing - because you often ask questions in relation to curating- maybe it's relevant to mention that at the time, none of us used that term and also generally in the fields of performing arts or film, it was more common to use other terms like selector or programmer or producer.
COW: But would you agree that you are pioneers in feminist curating? How is with you and the term feminism.
Koen Van Daele: Because the work was so diverse, you would have people who wouldn't ever call themselves feminist artists, but who were great, great artists. For example, Marilyn Crispell, or great musicians, great theatre people, etcetera. They would maybe even be reluctant to use this word. Now things have changed, but at the time, they would rather not call themselves feminists. Some artists were a little bit sceptical, when we wrote to them from the City of Women, that we want them. How do you approach this? What does it mean to you? What does it mean to be in this context etc.
So if that's why, on the one hand, what Bettina said and what Sabina said on the other, the language really shapes our way of thinking and we were thinking differently because we were using different terms and we were using and dealing with another type of reality. In one sense, we were pioneers of some sort of practice, definitely because it was a practice, definitely. But to call this the pioneers of feminist curating, I don't know…
Sabina Potočki: And I think it was also a big difference if you're talking about the period between 1995 and 2001, when the Bettina joined. We slowly started to include certain events in the festival, with which we wanted to see how people perceive the term feminism. It was an event with Rosi Braidotti and that was in 1999 exactly, before Bettina joined the team. We decided to name feminism in the catalogue, because there were so many people who were against the feminist positions, not only the media, but also in the art world in Ljubljana, in journalistic circles and even in the art theoretician circle. So there was a long way to go for feminism, but definitely I wouldn't say that when I was either programming, core programming or organizing, I had feminism on my mind. Most of the organizers of the first editions were not really experts in feminism. We had women from feminist theory circles, and they played a part in establishing first few festivals with us or they opened certain topics, which we included in the festival. But as you could also see in ČKZ magazine (Journal for the Critique of Science, for Imagination and New Anthropology) from 2015, dedicated to 20th anniversary of City of Women, a lot of writers are saying that the feminism came slowly to the foreground. We were not denying feminism, but like Koen said, there were many artists not wanting to identify themselves as feminists. We, the people from the arts particularly, were more interested in film, performing arts, visual arts, music.... Bettina was already very much into feminism, and she taught me a lot about the things I didn't know before. I was learning through the festival, so there were these kinds of changes and new discoveries all the time. While preparing for this talk, I thought a lot about my 31 years in Yugoslavia and the fact that feminism was not well accepted, and even perceived as something bourgeois. It was understood as something that western feminists wanted to import and it was not appreciated. And after 1991 we experienced independency. At that time everything changed, we approached the Western standards, not so much feminism, but the Western approach. So the first years at the City of Women were limited to the Western standards. We tried to introduce the audience to some theoreticians who were already linked to the Ex-Yugoslavian feminists and Slovenian feminists, people who were already familiar with western feminism in the 80s, trying to make it come alive. But this was happening very slowly. We reached the feminism in many circular ways. And I think that it was important not to be loud about it, otherwise we would have lost the audience, we would have been destroyed financially. After first edition, they reduced the festival funding but not so much that we could not survive. Not only in the right-wing parties, but also in the left-wing “loud feminism” was not very much appreciated. We knew the art scene and who covered what in the art organizations, who was running them, and what were they thinking about the women in the arts. It was not very, very clear in the 90s, if it is OK to promote women and why. There were many open fronts.
Bettina Knaup: What I wanted to add, just listening to Sabina, is that, yes, I came very much from gender studies at the time, I mean I was also involved with the arts but also strongly informed by the gender studies approach, a very politicized and thematic approach. I think at the time, I was thinking more about subjects and topics and then bringing artistsand scholars together around these topics. However, what I think I learned from Sabina and Koen working at the City of Women, is to be much more precise, clear and careful in paying attention to the sensibilities and artistic articulations. And not -so to say- looking for art that would illustrate a subject somehow, but really thinking through the arts and then maybe drawing, connecting lines and inviting scholars, who would also address this subject.
But for me, I would say, what I learned with Sabina and Koen, was how to be careful on so many levels, on the production level, on how to write… So in that sense, how to present but also how to host, so this whole aspect of the hospitality was really so intrinsic to the experience, and this is for me for instance an aspect where I would say this is really what I can now define as feminist curating; to really enable moments of encounter, not only encounters between artworks, but also between people, between souls, between sensibilities, and creating a space where something new might emerge through these encounters, and this was very, very at the centre, I think, of the festival.
“What I can now define as feminist curating is; to really enable moments of encounter, not only encounters between artworks, but also between people, between souls, between sensibilities, and creating a space where something new might emerge through these encounters, and this was very, very at the centre, I think, of the festival.”
And then I wanted to say something also again about my background coming from gender studies… I did come from, let's say, maybe a stronger feminist sensibility, I would say, but I was very much informed also through, let's say a critique of a certain articulation of feminism or feminisms, focusing very much on issues of migration, exclusion, diversities, etc. And being critical towards a certain very narrow western articulation of feminism, and in that sense, I appreciated very much the idea that the festival was open enough not to present only a narrow notion of what feminist art might be. I mean at the time, I didn't have the words for this, but now I would really say, there is nothing like “feminist art” in a narrow sense. There's maybe something like “art and feminism”. And there are resonances, as Peggy Phelan or Amelia Jones have written, that art might have “feminist effects” but that there is no feminist essence. So now I can maybe articulate this more clearly, but at that time, I think I was also informed by this wish to open feminist practices, discourses. That’s why I appreciated the fact that there was not a narrow set of criteria to say, OK, we select now only artists who declare, within their projects, very literally, a certain political agenda or a certain feminist agenda. I mean, of course, there were many artists who also were political or very outspoken, but when we're now looking back at the catalogues, I am really, I mean… of course we were not neutral. But I am impressed again to look at them and think, wow, they were good programs and great artists who worked within their media through certain subjects. So, it was not just art that would declare something or shout out something. They really reflected in their medium and in their form what they were doing and saying.
COW: So maybe I would go to the lecture of Rosi Braidotti in 1999. What was the response of the audience? How did you decide to publish her contribution in the book Feminism/s for Beginner/s (Feminizem/i za začetnike/ce)?
Koen Van Daele: As I remember this, the point was that Rosi was already for quite a while on our wish list. The same was true for Donna Haraway, because we did a conference also on women's science and technology. And I was actually at the conference in Amsterdam where you had Rosi introducing Donna Haraway to us and all of this... The plan was to do something with it. Of course, feminism was for many people the enemy and people’s approach to it was always very monolithic. With this event and Rosi’s lecture at the conference we wanted to say, that there are many feminisms. That's why we came upon this idea of Feminism/s for Beginners. And then the year after, we did an edition named Let’s Burn Feminism, because we wanted to shake up people’s conception about it and also to get the ball rolling. So, she would engage with a lot of people. We had all these, let's say, Yugoslav feminists at the same panel. So it was good to have an outsider and the Serbian, Croatian, Slovene contributions to it. Several of them were already on completely different islands, let's say. But it was good to get the thing rolling. Our point, like always, was not to bring the gospel. The point was that we bring different voices and people who will talk, we were a platform for….
Sabina Potočki: …exchange.
Koen Van Daele: Basically, I mean the booklet Feminism/s for Beginners gave you, after everything was finished, the feeling that something had happened. It would have been a pity for people to attend a conference, and for the conference not to leave a trace. Of course, it was also covered by the press, but we thought it would be good to keep it in a written form also, and that's why we then talked to Zoja Skušek from *cf and Sofia publishing house, she was in the corridor, and she agreed to publish it. We did the transcript, got it translated and published it.
I think we should really, especially within the Slovene context, always be aware of what Bettina said: Aware of the fact that people who had a good time, you know, from really having a good time and meeting people and enabling an encounter, were also ambassadors for the festival abroad. And as it happens so many times, the reputation abroad is much stronger than in the country. And then you work with these elements. The interaction between what happens abroad, what the idea of the festival represents and the reality you are living. This is sometimes quite difficult. But it's important that you are aware of these things all the time and that you operate with them.
Sabina Potočki: Although we were an international festival we wanted to bring to Ljubljana the events that people could not have seen or could not have related to before, so we wanted to bring something fresh and new and since we all had background in the arts, this was for us also exciting not just on the feminist level or emancipatory level, but also since it allowed us to bring things that we had not seen or we had seen partially (Bettina more in Berlin, I was not travelling so much), so it was also important for us to show different events to the local art scene. And me, coming from the art scene, I remember how slowly festival brought attention of people, even of people without prejudice, or for the artists, how slowly they decided they wanted to be a part of the festival. In the first few years we had a really hard time finding anybody, not because we thought there are no interesting works to be presented at the festival, but because artists had problems with being identified as feminist, they did not want to be “umetnica” (female artist). There were many obstacles involved in the art scene. We could have said we were just an international festival. But since we tried to make connections with the theory, it was important to present local art scene and slowly, in five years’ time, people started to respond or come and say: “Hey, I have an art piece, can I present it at your festival?” And also, partners came: “Hey, we have something, would you be interested in it?” Of course we were selecting, either theme-wise or based on the level of artistic importance, not just political. For me it was important to show female choreographers, who were very good in the 90s. I wanted to present them. They were glad, although at the beginning it was not like this. Not to mention art theory! I would not go into details… Politics is a part of art.
Bettina Knaup: I want to add something about this attempt to connect the local and the international scene and maybe something about our focus that was more on artistic and not so much on feminist work, political work. And I think another important aspect was …because you had also one question referring to more established artists, institutionalized artists, and more grassroots artists. I think on all these levels we mixed people quite intentionally, including artists from different generations. We followed this approach in every edition, and I really remember how artists were speaking about this. For instance, during the 7th edition, which was focusing exclusively on women of colour: I remember we hosted Coco Fusco, already then a very renowned performance and video artist, and Barby Asante, who is now much more known, but at the time she wasn't. We also presented a film by Assia Djebar, who was supposed to come (she didn't in the end) and we also had a screening of a documentary film about Audre Lorde (although she was not alive anymore). I remember how Coco Fusco was so excited about being on a program together with Assia Djebar, who was really her icon. And then Barby Asante was like, “Oh, wow, Coco Fusco is my icon and I am on the same festival as she is, so basically we can talk.” I am stressing the aspect of hosting so much because it was not just about having a good time, but it was really about enabling people to meet and to meet whom they would not necessarily be able to meet in other programs, in other festivals.
COW: I have read the booklet of the 6th edition where in the introduction Darja Zaviršek writes that the City of Women got labelled as exclusive and that is intended for a small circle of people. I was wondering, where did this criticism come from and how did you respond to it, also through the curatorial practice?
Sabina Potočki: There were two intro texts in 2000 for the 6th edition written by Darja Zaviršek, where she talked about exclusivity and popularization of the City of Women, and then Koen was opening the introduction titled Let’s Burn Feminism. And both texts are to a certain extent related to the media response to the festival a year ago, of the 5th edition. Because in the 5th edition we put Sadie Lee, a British painter, in the program. She represented women's sexuality and their aging bodies, we put her painting on the cover of the catalogue. This exhibition took place at Mala galerija of Modern Gallery and was supported by British Council. Sadie Lee was recommended to us by Nataša Velikonja, lesbian activist and, at that time, the editor of lesbian magazine (Lesbo). In the same year we co-organized several events with explicitly lesbian artists. The identity of a lesbian artist was not explained in CV it, it was not the first sentence you would identify yourself with. But then we did the workshop, the Lesbian image/ Imagination together with Ženski center Kasandra from Metelkova and together with Škuc we had another exhibition called Lesbian ConneXion/s in Škuc Gallery. All this was presented to this festival, and you could probably imagine what the reaction from the media was afterwards. We had rather nasty statements in Delo and in Celje newspaper, where they were outraged with the image on the front cover of City of Women booklet. And they said feminism is a closed ghetto, and that we tend towards the exclusivism… Then we had another negative review in the Večer newspaper by a female journalist who attacked the 5th edition saying that we are marginal, and that we organize a small circle of people… Koen at a certain point - because we did not agree with what was written there - responded to her in the same newspaper. So we were attacked but not really hurt because there were already many journalists at the time of the 5th edition defending us. But anyway, for people it was too much to have an ugly woman at the festival. At that time also one famous fashion model was coming to Ljubljana and they said: “Why didn't she open the festival?” These were to a certain extent the things we were involved with. But yes, we followed the media and reacted to responses…
And regarding the number of people that year… Katja Kobolt joined us and she was responsible for public relations. I read her festival report from 1999, where she is talking about the attendance of the festival. What happened at that time in Ljubljana (this is much better organised today) is that organisations that did not have festivals in October decided to have them in October. So we were overlapping for two years with Borštnikovo srečanje, with Exponto, with Student culture days. Although we’ve had the festival for 5 years in October, nobody informed us about this. I don’t think they did not pay attention to us, but they pushed this month. So we had a problem with overlapping and we were addressing this at our meetings… We went to Ministry of Culture and trying to explain to them that they should also pay attention to the dates of the the events in the applications. So we were moving the date of the festival all the time: either on the 1st or 2nd week of October. And yes, sure we had less people.
COW: And in 2001 you focused the pressure on non-white artists. I would also like to know something more about that. Why? Why was this crucial at that time?
Koen Van Daele: I always think that I mean that we always started from work. I mean the main message was always the same. Basically, as far as I'm concerned, it was always the same approach in the sense of terms, in the sense of methods in terms of selection criteria. I mean it's not just about finding great work, but it's also about whether or not it makes sense to make this work. I mean, to bring this work here at this particular moment, but it was also, I think it, I mean now I'm just speculating, but one of the arguments was always to go into the unknown. You know, the more— I mean it's, you know— this curiosity factor and going to areas which are not yet explored was also a very important drive for selecting work. So we were not into celebrating the known, it was about discovering the unknown and bringing the topics that were not on the agenda and in many cases were on the agenda only much later.
Sabina Potočki: We did like 6 days of the festival because we wanted artists to be here at the time of the festival. That’s why we established a strong connection. This was not possible at the other festivals, this one was shorter. We had a very nice place for afterparties at Menza pri koritu, so each night we went with the artists to Menza, where there were concerts, parties, djs. These were one of the most intense six days of the festival and I think most of the audience loved it, although the journalists did not even come. They were just attacking the fact that we invited only artists of colour.
Bettina Knaup: Maybe I just wanted to add again. I mentioned how I came to the City of women after working before for this international women's university, which was really a huge thing somehow at the time. Imagine 1000 scholars and artists working together for three months at the same time in different cities. And what we did was that we agreed early on on a quota. Basically, 2/3 of the participants had to be from countries of the global South, from non Western countries. So 2/3 of the approximately 1000. So I came from this experience. And then when I saw that you were planning this edition focusing exclusively on women of colour, for me this was really important at that time. But I also want to say that it was really a huge issue at that time. It was urgent, it was pertinent, it arose out of the debates that were taking place in many contexts. And maybe we did it differently than it would be done now, but it was really something that was present and timely I would say.
COW: So Sabina, how was it for you in 2005, when Bettina and Koen left, and Mara Vujić and Milijana Babić joined the team. How did the dynamics change?
Sabina Potočki: We invited the visual artist Milijana Babić to present her exhibition in 2003. Miljana was suggested by a friend, Belgium curator, who was accidentally in Durban, South Africa and saw exhibition of the student of Durban Art Institute and he mentioned Milijana who we didn't know before, so I contacted her. She was still living there; she has been living in South Africa for more than 10 years. We invited her with Alice in Wonderland exhibition called Nonsense to the Alkatraz Gallery. About Mara, I was not sure how she joined so I asked her instead. Obviously we had call for the collaborators for the festival and somebody from the Zavod Kersnikova (she was working there at the time) mentioned this to her. Already in 2003 we included Mara in a curatorial team. So I met both Milijana and Mara in 2003, while still working with Bettina, and then after being confronted with the festival Milijana decided to come back to Europe, since she was away for such a long period. She started to study at the Faculty of Fine Arts at University of Ljubljana and we asked her to join the team in 2004. So in 2004, together with Bettina, Milijana and Mara we worked in the organizational team and then when Bettina left in 2005, I was wondering and questioning myself what to do. I had already been at the City of Women for a long time, although I had never really programmed it without co-curators. I was very strong in coordination and organization. Sure, I had an opinion, and I participated in most of our programme decisions but curating was not really my task. And then somehow this year, before we found the new curators, which I was working a lot on finding them (Dunja Kukovec and Katja Kobolt), we decided in 2005 to work on the program together with Milijana and Mara. We included more than seven years of my experiences with working at the City of Women. I gave them all the links to the previous collaborators… It was not so difficult, but it was more like a challenge for self-trust. And you know it was not easy.
After 2008, the curation or programming of the festival was taken over by Katja Kobolt and Dunja Kukovec, initially in collaboration with Sabina Potočki, and later with various guest curators. You can look forward to an interview with them in the next Reflecting.
